I put “wolf biologists” in quotes because what these guys are really up to is extending their ability to kill wolves when they feel like it. Idaho is especially harsh to wolves, and the state game agencies are controlled largely by people who hate predators. In this case, they don’t like that the wolves can go untracked deep in the wilderness, and this is a way for them to control what they can’t control. That’s all this is about. Too bad the helicopter landings likely violate the wilderness act.
A big thanks to the Wolf Recovery Foundation and the Western Watersheds Project for their work on this.
Maybe someone does not want to know if David Mech is correct when he testified that the estimated wolf populations are 10% under actual numbers.. I’m not keen on the landings either, but then over the years I know they do it, the feds have done it and the state has done it.. Recently two USFS employees were rescued from the Sawtooth Wilderness area, 2005 I believe. They felt threatened by wolves.. I’ve felt threatened by them a time or two myself, but then Cougars and Bears have made me feel threatened before as well, no big deal really.. If you spend enough time out in it, you can find yourself in a closer than recommended proximity to those critters.. I see you are still pushing the predators are hated mythology.. I guess we should start calling you the rural Idahoan rural Montana hater.. You probably my kids who raised 4-h farm animals for the fair while living on our little spread here, you probably hate me because I want to be left alone by people like you, and over populated predators, excuse us Mike, for wanting a little piece of mind while living on our deeded lands legally purchase and maintained for decades.. Excuse us for not wanting live according to your philosophy.. Unfortunately wolves seem to have no care for my space, funny how bears and cougars respect me, but wolves could not give two shits about my space. I don’t even let my Lab run loose on the place any more. So keep on trying to force us to live according to your standards, this has nothing to do with predators at all, it has to do with nosy self appointed know it all types who just can’t leave other humans alone.. Keep one thing in mind, this is our back yard, yours is in Illinois..
10% over actual numbers.
We don’t hate predators Mike, we hate liars..
Am I reading this correctly that 500 wolves were killed in Idaho and Montana last year?
Here is a clip from the article…..
This latest clash over predator management comes as a federal court judge in Montana weighs restoring Endangered Species Act protections to 1,650 gray wolves in Idaho, Wyoming and Montana. Wolf hunts in Montana and Idaho, as well as sanctioned killings in response to livestock attacks, resulted in the deaths of more than 500 wolves last year.
That is a lot of wolves to be taken out in one year–doesn’t sound like sanctioned hunting to me. Sounds more like sanctioned killing.
I would prefer the state and feds just did it your way, let the predators have all the freedom you think they need. The sooner the better. Then every thing can be endangered and you win.. You people have no shame at all..
Well logging is dead, hunting is dying, next up on the plate of enviro consumption, ski mountains, etc. etc..
This never ends.
I do see your point about living in an area and enjoying the solitude. If I had the option, I would live in such a place as well, but many jobs dictate that we live in metropolitan regions depending on our particular livelihoods. However, just like when people in California choose to continue building houses in the brush ravines (places that native Americans didn’t have settlements in because they don’t want their homes burnt out every few years) they need to accept the fact their houses will get burned up in a brush fire every now and then. If you live in an area that has natural predators, well, they come with the territory. That is unless you eliminate them altogether. Predators are a part of the landscape. I am not against taking out (in a humane way–not using helicopters or snowmobiles) rogue animals. Farmers complain about deer eating their crops, well, hundreds or years ago that weren’t millions of acres of tastey corn to sustain an above natural population of deer. Coyotes have become a problem because there are not enough natural predators (like wolves and cougars)to compete for the food sources. Of course, we don’t necessarily want packs of wolves near inhabited areas but they do (for the most part) tend to stay away from inhabited areas. Whenever I visit remote areas I take certain precautions against predators–mostly bear which have a mind of their own–usually looking for an easy meal. I realize that sometimes wildlife mangement agencies need to intervene in the natural selection process and artificially manage certain groups of animals but there seems to be two camps which are always at odds with each other. Those who are pro kill anything that impinges on mankind’s total exploitation of everything on the earth and that which creeps upon it. And those, who cry if you squish a mosquito that just landed on your arm. It’s all about balance and both groups becoming less polarized and working on a compromize to afford mankind the use and enjoyment of the earth and its abundance and yet preserve these very same things for future generations to also earn a livelihood and enjoy for recreational purposes. Yes, I was one of those kids in 4-H and some of my best friends’ parents were ranchers and farmers in Idaho and Montana. We have the same discussions (rather heatedly sometimes) as people still have because in the last 30 years attitudes really haven’t changed that much. Best regards!
We never had predator problems until two years ago, a wolf pack, the Archie mountain pack, pushed 19 of my horses out of their corral in the middle of the night.. Two days to round em up, and a day to repair the broken wood rail fence.. My family has lived here since 1870 and never had a beef with a bear or cougar.. It seems to me some body told us the wolves would be in the wilderness and National parks and would be no problem.. See the original deal.. Wolves were removed because they cause problems for rural, and home stead type living situations.. Basically you guys are telling us how to live on our own property.. While forgetting that we hunters built this prey base up which supports this super efficient predator.. At least did, they have damn near destroyed it.. What would sweet is if we could go back to the Founding Fathers original Constitutional intentions as set forth by the 10th Amendment. Thus looking over my fence becomes none of your business again.. Then we could say adios to that unAmerican nonsense.. Nature managing Nature is a theory, and it will never work. What really sickens me is people like Mike thinking they know it all and arrogantly ignoring the truth while pushing the “agenda” which is his belief not mine, on me.. Seems like a lot of wars have been fought over that philosophy time after time.. Some people never seem to learn from history.
Yes, I do like to have my privacy as well and I don’t like the government or anyone taking it away. Do you know what occurred to cause the Archie mountain pack to expand or change its territory? Let me ask you this, as a rancher/farmer/land owner who has a wolf pack in your backyard, what would you do to control them–aside from destroying them?
You have a lot of anger Greg F. What’s the deal? You blame everyone else on the planet for just about everything. What good is going on in your life?
Well I live at the base of Archie Mountain. Now that pack has been monitored all over the place in about a 100 mile radius..
How do you control a free roving very busy group of dogs ?
You know, those of us living with it, are learning about it.. This is only a 15 year old thing, and has only been a hassle for about six years.
And lets remember the gov agencies involved, and all the expert armchair quarter wolf backers are learning, ( we all hope ) even though I sometimes doubt it.
Some folks think I shouldn’t have the land or live here. I think their very selfish and blind people.
I think other nations history concerning wolves and man and rural lands is very relevant..
That history proves the two could not get along.. The man wants peace, the wolf wants to eat.. That spells trouble..
The Missoulian, June 20, 1916
Wolves in Korea Killed 113 People and 2,000 Animals
Seoul, Korea, June 20. – Accustomed as Koreans are to the attacks of wild animals in the mountains, they have been astonished to learn that during the last year 120 people were killed by beasts and that over 3,000 domestic animals were either killed or injured. This havoc was wrought by tigers, leopards, bears and Korean wolves, but it was thewolf , according to official statistics, that did the greatest amount of harm. It is estimated that these ferocious creatures slew 113 persons and injured 50, besides killing or injuring 517 cattle and 1,519 other domestic animals.
The Korean wolf, which is locally known as the neuktai is a powerful animal of the canine species, a little larger, but longer and thinner than the native Korean dog. In color it is brown and gray. It possesses piercing eyes and in face of danger or while capturing prey shows wonderful agility, hiding itself in underbrush, jumping over high cliffs or swiftly swimming across rivers and lakes. In attacking a pony or cow it will leap upon the victim’s flank and kill instantly by tearing open some vital part. In attacking a man it will follow him for a time and occasionally leap over his head, seeking to unnerve him and cause him to fall to the ground, when it will immediately attack and kill. Oftentimes it will summon its mates to assist in attacking. There are instances of where awolf has carried off a big bog for considerable distance or where it has jumped over a high wall with a pig in its mouth.
The Korean authorities are exerting every effort to exterminate the animal and rewards are offered for each wolf that is killed.
Angry, yes, I found out through 30+ years of truth seeking Utopia is and illusion.
Hate to say this, but I think you seem a little bit over the top…
Over the top of “peer” reviewed conforming opinions, and modern day academia for sure. Get back to me in say about 24 months and lets see if your thoughts have been adjusted a bit. And then I would love to hear what you think about over the top, 24 years from now, with a few updates every twelve months or so. In the mean time feel free to debunk any one of my 500 blogs, because I hate to say this but the average persons reality is in fact severely under the top..
Not sure what the benchmark of “24 months” would be. I have not read all of your 500 blogs, as I am sure you have not read all of mine on cyberworld.
for starters: you said “And lets remember the gov agencies involved, and all the expert armchair quarter wolf backers are learning, ( we all hope ) even though I sometimes doubt it.”
Historically, US gov agencies have been in the business of pleasing ranchers for agricultural money/gains. Historically, US has been in the nature of wildlife eradicating- Bounties to start with, then US Forest Service, Biological Survey. Because of the ESA, the gov was required to reintroduce a species, gray wolf that had been extirpated. I think that is a good thing. However, the western culture has not changed their hatred, does not coexist with the gray wolf. The few livestock that are killed per year are far less in number than livestock killed by disease, humans, domestic dogs and such. Wolves are scapegoated, always have been. So are griz, cougars. No we have a reintroduction gone bad because we have a legal wolf hunt, meanwhile Wildlife services of the US gov takes out entire packs for eating one goat left in the wilderness (or ranchers 200,000 acres such as Mitchell MTn pack owned by Sen Baucus of MT). At some point in the near future things need to change.
I am not sure why you would presume to think wolf supporters are armchair advocates- we can see the reality and the injustice of the politics of wolf haters.
I’ve lived here for 51 years, I have yet to meet a wolf hater. We have a reintroduction gone bad because we never had elk to carrying capacity of this Sawtooth Zone. We lost several thousand elk and deer to winter kill in 1992-3. The majority of this zone is Vertical.
These elk cannot compete with wolf packs in belly deep snows, their ancient migrations are blocked by highways, rural roads, private property, and towns and city’s. The Treasure Valley was winter range a century ago, the lower Payette, and Emmett Valley as well.
You cannot repopulate wolves, and expect them to behave as they did over a century ago when their healthy prey base could avoid them. The healthy elk are easy targets in this land locked scenario, thus a management of some kind is needed, either a hunt, including state or fed culling, which I agree sucks. So then what is the other option? Why not capture and release methods, remove the surplus wolves to Oregon/Colorado/Washington/Nevada/Utah.
There is no getting around it we do have and will continue to have that surplus of wolves. To allow them to crash elk herds is not fair to the wolves nor to those of us you feel the need to marginalize because we see this differently than you do. People cannot coexist with any out of control animal wold or domestic on their private property, and neither can they be expected to suffer it stalking them at the edge of it.
Your change for these lands only means one thing, we move to the city. No. And you’re perspective of the gov catering to ranchers is a double edged sword, because the gov wants them shut down but are using you folks to get that done.
Just keep in mind, when the gov finally comes clean on the reality of the elk conundrum and lists them with the crashing wolves, show a little integrity, and don’t blame me the hunter for the elks declines. They also want me off the lands gunless and not able to hunt.
I never presume anything. Just keep watching the economy, political events, and the “terrorism” over the time frames I mentioned, you’ll start get it one day, things around you gline, are not as they appear. Not even close.
This wolf hater has still not bought the tag and shot a wolf. Why you might wonder,(1) because hunting them will not change the crashing and out of balance elk herds. (2) Hunting predators never made sense to me. But i was thankful for those few who did it which kept them in balance. (3) Because the myths about the wolves are still the perception of those assuming wolves can or will balance the ungulates, I feel disgust and anger towards those people and this unproven theory. (4) Have no need of the pelt or skull period, and cannot kill one with this anger or disgust towards believers of myths. Excepting in a self defense action which has not occurred YET..
The Korean tale of wolves killing 30 people sounds like a movie, hmmm, we could call it crouching wolf, hidden bear. It sounds as though the animals there have some paranormal skills not possessed by those living here in North America. It’s no wonder there is such a huge market in asia for animals parts. It sounds, perhaps that some wolves interbred with some local dogs which has resulted in an unstable hybrid. Whatever they are, their ability to jump through the air to attack people borders on sensationalism. The blurb about tigers and bears attacking people sounds like they are trying to justying their desire to eradicate both of those species and dine on kimpchi and exotic animal parts. I would need to see scientific documentation before I believe any of these things claimed in the Korean newspaper.
Getting back to the Archie pack, my questions is, why have they expanded their territory? Have their numbers increased? Has the pack split? Are they out looking for easy meals due to hard winters, lack of food? Before conclusions can be drawn, these types of questions need to be answered. If wildlife biologists need to conduct research to best manage the pack, then they need to have some contact with the animals. However, if wildlife biologists are merely tracking wolves to make it easier for government officials (or anyone else) to track and kill them, then shame on them.
I can understand Greg’s feelings about wolves and that they may cause him grief with his livestock, because sucessful reintroduction and coexistence of predators only happens with the support from those people who live near the predators–whether it be a canid or something else. There are various means to control these populations (though sometimes more complicated and costly)than merely killing them. Again, dialogue amongst all affected parties must take place regularly.
” dialogue amongst all affected parties must take place regularly.”
And that itself is the leading cause of the animosity I see, until Ralph understands the need for that his tactics will continue to hurt his cause.
I have watched the wolves clear five foot fences with ease. I raised a Canadian Timber wolf, and he lived with me for 14 years. The wolf is ten times more athletic and agile than a domestic top dog..
Their long legs are what causes the misconception that they are 200 pound dogs. Most of these animals if their front paws were on a six foot tall mans shoulders their head would be looking down at the mans head.
Wolf was 130+ pounds and could do this to me. I also had a German Shepherd which went 130+ pounds and he could do so as well.. Flip, my yellow lab in his first four years could jump over me with ease.
The wolf is going to eat, and if the wolf has no game domesticated animals and people are in line. The wolf in intelligence is far superior to the cougar or bear. I think that has been the wolf’s down fall historically, they observe and learn, and eat..
Their the coolest thing out their on four paws, I just don’t ever under estimate them. They will ruin their prey base and move to other locals, their in fact doing just that.
In 1995 I never imagined this would be such a train wreck. It is and we need to face it.
Yes, the wolves long legs make them seem much bigger to people than in reality. I did a quick check on the net of people dying from wolf attacks and there are 17 documented in europe and russia over the last 50 years, zero in north america. Of course if you check wikipedia, there seem to be some listed which contradicts many official statistics. Of course, I ask the question, how many were hybrids or had rabies, attacked children, etc? I had a siberian wolf mix and she had an unpredictable temperament. She could be the sweetest, smartest dog, or a total pain in the neck. You can’t train them like a dog, you need to use more human psychology to persuade them–I’ve competed on the state level several times in 4-H dog obedience, trained my own sled team, and also taught people how to raise future leader dogs for the blind. She was more intelligent than of any of my huskies (had about 12 or 13 in my life). When I was a kid I used to frequent every sled dog race I could and many of the mushers wouldn’t have a dog that had more than 1/8th wolf because they were just too unpredictable. I am a firm believer of keeping domestic and wild animals from cross breeding. It can happen too easily on it’s own let alone when people purposely breed dogs and wolves or coyotes. There is much more to wolf management than just releasing them into the wild; particularly, since man’s population worldwide had expanded into what used to be desolate areas inhabited by few people. Population control is another touchy subject–especially in areas of the world that keep growing, and growing, and growing. It’s man that has the largest negative impact on our environment–not the animals.